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Welcome to The 7 Domains of Grieving. We are going to talk about the spiritual domain today. And if you haven't listened to any of the other Domains of Grieving, it is such a big topic, but check out any of the other domains, like the physical domain and the environmental domain, the social domain. Oh, all of them.

There is a whole world of grieving through the spiritual lens, and different cultures have different spiritual practices around grieving, and so do different religions, which have a spiritual practice which overlies cultural ones, which makes this all a very, very rich tapestry.

And despite the fact that we come from different cultures and different religions, we all feel this connectedness with our grieving process in a fundamental way that affects all of us.

Today in the Virtual Scope Studio, we're joined by Carolyn Swift Jones. She's a priestess in the metaphysical church and a former pastoral leader in her local Unity Church. She has the 30-million-mile view, and that's the really big view of the spiritual domain of grieving, and she's going to help us think about this. She's helped us out before when we did the 7 Domains of Crying, so you'll want to go back and check that one out on the podcast.

Dr. Jones: So welcome to the Scope Studio, Carolyn.

Carolyn: Oh, thank you. I am so happy to be here with you again.

Dr. Jones: Talk to me about how you see the grieving process in the spiritual frame. How do you connect grieving the loss of someone important and the spiritual domain when you think about this?

Carolyn: Oh, it's such a beautiful question, and I'm so grateful that I get to teach mediumship as well as practice it myself every day. Lately when I've been teaching my students how to connect to other dimensions, I ask them to imagine walking through a forest in which there are living and dead trees. But the dead trees are not really dead, are they? Because they continue to support the living trees, and the living trees continue to be in a beautiful, ongoing relationship with what we call the non-living trees.

Dr. Jones: What a great metaphor. What an amazing . . . now that we've learned about the "Wood Wide Web" and the understory, as it were, the deep understory that connects all things. Sorry to interrupt. That took me back, and that's a beautiful way of thinking about this.

Carolyn: Thank you. It came to me because I spend so much time in the woods, and where I'm walking these woods are not manicured. They're left to be wild and pristine, and they're healthy. And I've come to view a healthy spiritual topography as a topography that includes both living and what we would call dead, but they're not really dead, non-physical energies.

One of the other reasons I've come to this is that in my practice as a medium, I have noticed over and over and over, and it's been my joy to do so, that the energies that we call dead are very much alive.

Many of them retain their earthly personalities. They have opinions about what's going on the Earth plane, and they have lot to say to their loved ones, and to their families. Sometimes what they have to say is esoteric and spiritual, and sometimes it's really practical. "Check out your brakes." That kind of message. "Thank you for the flowers at my memorial service. They were beautiful." That kind of thing.

I also notice that among the so-called dead, but they're not really dead, they're just living on another dimension, on another plateau, that there is a lively conversation going on between family members and loved ones on what we call the other side or the fourth dimension.

So, for instance, I'll be working with somebody and Uncle Frank will come in. Let's just imagine that Uncle Frank passed away maybe six months ago, but Uncle Frank is going to bring with him a lot of other energies. He'll bring with him a great-grandmother that nobody thought about for a long time, a little dog that was in the collective family's childhood memories. All kinds of other energies will come in.

And so you get the sense that the ongoing desire to communicate, to hug, to embrace, to chat sometimes about the funniest, silliest, loveliest things, it's happening all around us.

Dr. Jones: In your pastoral duties when you were a pastor with a congregation, did you have members of your group who asked you to put them in touch specifically? Or have you had directed requests for people who are grieving the loss of someone?

Carolyn: Well, not when I was a pastor, because I kept it very separate. But it's something I am available for with my clients all the time.

Dr. Jones: So they might ask you to help them hear, find that voice in the busy, noisy world that we live in, to be able to hear a voice that comes from someplace we're not used to listening?

Carolyn: Yeah, fourth dimension. Sometimes when I'm getting ready to work with a client . . . well, each and every time, I go into meditation and I focus on that person's energy and write down everything I hear. And during that half hour, I'll often hear names of people who are now in fourth dimension. If I haven't heard that name, the name of the person that they're really hoping to hear from, I'll hear lots of other names.

Sometimes I won't hear the name of the person that's most pressing on their heart, and they will ask me, "My mom just passed away." And then I will say, “What's her first name?" And if I just hear the first name of Mom, then I can plug into Mom's energy and bring forth communication this way.

One of the things I've noticed is that family systems often have what I call a master of ceremonies. So Mom may be the one that's most pressing on my client's heart, but her family system has a master of ceremony, and it's Great-Uncle Tom.

So Great-Uncle Tom was that lively guy who always was having people over to his house, was constantly cooking, constantly the glue of the family when he was in his physical body. And he remains that way on the fourth dimension.

So Uncle Tom will often start this opening, or the master of ceremonies will start the opening of conversation for the loved ones.

Sometimes the master of ceremonies is going to be a well-loved neighbor who's recently or not so recently passed on.

Dr. Jones: Well, I'm going to tell a little story. Several of the stories I want to tell here today have you in the center, but not the immediate center. During your ordination you had suggested that I come to a message ceremony. And I'll tell you I pray to the Church of Harvard Medicine and I am a scientist, and I believe only what I can see and feel and touch, those things in three dimensions. And I said, "Okay. Fine, fine, fine. I'll go to the message ceremony."

And during that, I was asked to put down a question on a little piece of paper, a question who I wanted to hear from. I did have a very pressing question about what I was going to do after I retired, in the third part of my life. And there is a dear, dear friend with whom I was very intertwined in some of the most wonderful times of her life who died. So I put her name down, and her name was Linda.

And so I put my question on this little piece of paper, which was closed. No one opened it, but there was a medium up front who just reached into a basket and pulled out my little closed piece of paper and did not open it up, had no idea what my question was, didn't even know who I was asking to hear from.

He called out my initials and I heard my initials. And then he just held this piece of paper, not open. My question was, "How do I serve my community in the last third of my life?" As much as I don't believe any of this medium stuff, or I didn't at the time, and I didn't believe it, but I'm just sitting there because I want to support you and I want to support my husband, la, la, la.

And this guy up front says, "Linda," and he didn't see the name. It was just on a folded piece of paper. "Linda wants to tell you that you will support your community, you'll serve your community through your voice." And I went, "Well, my goodness."

It really set me back because I really wanted to hear from Linda, and he put me in touch without even knowing that that was the name that I wanted.

So for those of us who are scientists, as we see ourselves, and at the edge of the very tangible dimensions, sometimes things come to us that we can't explain in the spiritual world.

Carolyn: Yes. Hamlet has a line to his friend Horatio.

Dr. Jones: Oh, exactly.

Carolyn: After the appearance of the spirit of his father, he says to him, "There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy, Horatio."

Dr. Jones: Well, in the Church of Harvard Medicine, that is true because it's kind of a narrow church.

I think another example . . . once again, you were there for this first one, but you weren't the focus. You were in the room. And the second time, you weren't the focus, but it was after your mom . . . And for our listeners, your mom was my mother-in-law, and beloved to me.

After she died and we were all gathering, we were all at our favorite place at the lake, and there was a great white egret that showed up every single day during the time of her memorial service. These are four feet tall and they're splendidly white. And every time I looked out into the marsh, I would see this white vision that I was absolutely sure was your mom. And I felt so much at ease just knowing that she was there.

Again, this is me, the scientist, who only believes what I can touch and feel and measure. But I just knew this great white egret . . . I don't know if you remember that year, and the great white that was there for weeks. And then she went away and didn't come back.

Carolyn: I do remember. What struck me about that is that egret resembled a picture of Mom that my brother, your husband, has of her in a beautiful white nightgown with her arms outstretched.

Dr. Jones: In the midst of grieving, we're so overwhelmed we can't even hear a voice outside. So how do you help people? They're so overwhelmed physically. The noise of their grief is so loud they don't have time to listen. How can you help people make that transition from the emotional overdrive, the physical overdrive of feelings such grief, so that they can be open to actually thinking something bigger about the person they've lost?

Carolyn: Well, I'd put it a little bit differently. I would say I'm a messenger, but it's really the person who's left their physical body who is doing the great work: sending a message, sending a communication that will help lighten the load. My job is to hear it and to bring it in.

What I notice that a lot of beloveds do for their loved ones who are left on earth is that they will bring in messages that are so specific with such specific names and references, and oftentimes so lighthearted and so practical as to almost jolt that person out of that deep, deep grief into something much more lighthearted.

The person who's left on earth has the experience of saying, "Oh, yes, I remember that. That was funny. I can't believe he's talking about that. That was a hysterical thing that happened," or, "Oh, yes, I know what she's talking about. Yes, we do need to attend to that. Yes, she's right. Absolutely."

And so what I find is helpful is if the conversation is normalized to the point where it feels like we're just picking up the phone and we're just picking up where we left off. Not necessarily with a deathbed scene, or not necessarily with pain and agony, but with the events that long preceded that deathbed scene or happened just a few weeks beforehand, that were of a lighthearted nature and practical.

Those conversations that I am privy to hear and act as kind of a switchboard operator for, to get people hearing and listening to each other, are tremendously healing.

Dr. Jones: I remember, and this is some history here, that Houdini, who was a very famous magician, as he were, practical guy in many ways, but his beloved mother died. And he went all over the world trying to find someone who might connect him with his mother, and debunking perhaps people who felt that they were mediums but maybe they weren't.

All doing this in good heart, trying to find someone who can be your guide so that you can hear what's in your head or what's out there anyway, how would you find a guide? How do you connect with someone?

Carolyn: How do you find a reliable medium? Is that the question?

Dr. Jones: Yeah, I guess that's what I'm saying.

Carolyn: Word of mouth. I would be careful of someone who's going to want to charge you way too much money, or somebody who is practicing the art of mediumship because they want to be famous or there's another agenda at hand.

Ask your friends, "Have you ever talked with somebody, a medium, that you trusted, that you felt really good about?" That's the best way. I don't think it's the kind of profession where you can look them up in the Yellow Pages.

Dr. Jones: Right. Although Google can connect you with anything, people who are grieving are so vulnerable.

For people who it's not part of their spiritual practice, or it's something that their own religion looks down on . . . Although many religions have this kind of idea that there's something out there. You have to be open and talk to people, I guess. And you have to say, “I'm willing to hear from someone."

Thinking about different organized religions, there are certain organized religions that welcome the metaphysical, and some that seem to be less welcoming of the metaphysical. But in every faith, there are people who practice the metaphysical in that faith, whether it's welcoming or not.

A friend of mine who's Italian says, "Oh, yeah, my Italian grandmothers are always talking about who they talked to last night on the other side." They're very religious Catholics, but they're always talking to someone on the other side.

Carolyn: Yes, Catholicism has this beautiful thing. We believe in the communion of saints. Another way of saying it is we believe that we keep having conversations with people who have lived and had their lives and now are in etheric form. "We believe in that," is what they're saying. So while you're having a conversation with St. Anthony, why not bring your dad in?

Dr. Jones: I'm going to work on that one.

Well, is there any other message, Carolyn, that you'd like to give to me and our listeners as we think about how to manage our grieving experience to bring us grounded to some joy and togetherness from this person that we've lost from the time past?

Carolyn: I always tell my clients, "Talk to your loved ones nonstop." Just keep talking. Open the conversation up. And don't worry if your grief is such that all you can do is cry, or your grief is such that you're angry. Don't worry about the quality of your emotion. Just keep the door open by talking, talking, talking.

And talk about all kinds of things. "This is what we're having for dinner tonight." "Oh my God, I miss you so profoundly. I can't even move." Bring it all in.

There's a beautiful spiritual law that states that expression increases the flow. And so the more that we are willing to begin that conversation by saying, "I miss your physical presence so terribly, and I know that you're still very much alive, and this is what we're having for dinner tonight."

Dr. Jones: Well, I was thinking about the people who have more complex relationships and they're just plain angry, they're really angry, and they didn't get a chance to yell enough at this person who's passed. They've got stuff that's not finished and their grief is wrapped around the fact that they have unfinished business. They really want to yell at the person who treated them badly or they feel that they were treated badly. How does that work?

Carolyn: I say go ahead, yell. Let 'er rip. It's too bad you didn't get to have that conversation when both parties were in the physical plane, but better late than never.

I've negotiated many a conversation just like that where many times I've had parents come in for children who are furious with their parents. At first, "No, I don't want to talk to him. No, I don't." "Well, he's ready to hear anything you have to say." "Okay." And then the person lets it rip, bursts into tears, yells, screams, cries. And we have a kind of . . . well, it's like family therapy, really.

Dr. Jones: Yeah. Stuff that didn't get done in the material plane, but still needs to get done, because if it stays undone, it serves as an unfortunate rocking rhythm in someone's pain for years and years and years that they don't get it done.

Carolyn: And in their family system. Many parents come in and apologize to their children. This has happened a lot. Many spouses have come and apologized. Many people who have suicided have come and apologized.

We hear a lot of apologies, a lot of amends. But then we also hear a lot of joyful, silly, wonderful, whimsical, light stories. So it runs the gamut, but certainly, if there's anger there, let that person know how angry you are. That's a beginning. That's a good way to start a conversation, actually.

Dr. Jones: And then maybe some of those . . . Because every relationship had some good memories to it. You may not be able to reach them now because you're so overwhelmed with your anger grieving. I call it anger grieving, meaning you just didn't get done with your stuff before they died.

Well, Carolyn, I'm really grateful that you spent this time with me personally, of course, and with people who are thinking about the 7 Domains of Grieving. Is there anything else you think we should know?

Carolyn: Life is just glorious. No matter if you are in your physical body or out exploring the many other dimensions, it's glorious, it's unfolding, it's evolving. It's really a good, good thing. Life is good.

Dr. Jones: Oh, that's a wonderful way to end. Thank you for being with us, Carolyn.

And for those of you who haven't listened to other parts of the 7 Domains of Grieving, we talk a lot about the hard parts of grieving, how families grieve together in a wonderful way, the physical signs of grieving, and for those of us in the environmental signs of grieving, those of us who are beginning to grieve the planet as we think about our own beautiful planet's struggles. So check in with the other domains.

I'm going to end this episode, end the 7 Domains of Grieving with a little haiku. Of course, all haikus are little. So here it comes.

You are in my heart
My grief makes you immortal
A bright shining star